Andy Rowell

Church Leadership Conversations

  • My Yahoo LAUNCHcast Radio Station and Why I Listen to Lectures and Sermon Audio

    You can listen to my LAUNCHcast Station here

    It plays

    • Christian artists like Jennifer Knapp and Chris Rice
    • Worship artists like Chris Tomlin, Vicky Beeching, David Crowder Band, Shane & Shane, and Delirious?
    • Christian artists who sing "secular music" like U2, Lifehouse, Bob Dylan, Bruce Cockburn, and Johnny Cash.
    • Non-Christian artists like Toad the Wet Sprocket, Matchbox Twenty, Gin Blossoms, Indigo Girls, Alanis Morissette, and Pearl Jam who I like because of their thoughtful words and/or great melodies.

    Note:

    I have to turn off ("disable") my Norton Internet Security pop-up blocker to play the station.

    Disclaimer:

    I freely admit I am not a very artistic, musically-astute listener. I last played an instrument when I played tuba in 8th grade. I don’t prioritize buying CD’s or buying concert tickets. The height of my musical appreciation was listening to lots of top 40 radio from 1986-1994 (jr-high and high school).

    My listening habits:

    I can listen to all the LAUNCHcast radio stations commercial-free because I have SBC DSL high-speed internet at home. Find the LAUNCHcast station guide here for lots of stations like Contemporary Christian Station or the Praise and Worship Station which you can listen to with commercials.

    I have a cord from my laptop (from the headphone jack) to my stereo so I can listen to it through my stereo speakers.

    At work, I can’t get LAUNCHcast to work because of the settings at the school so I sometimes listen to Christian radio at K-Love here.

    Often times in the morning, I listen to NPR (National Public Radio). I listen to their Hourly Newscast 5-minute news summary, the NPR Program Stream or stories that look interesting. I have blogged about this before here and here and here.

    Still, I most often am found listening to sermons and lectures online. My post here gives a great list of Sermons and Lectures online. This may be my most valuable post.

    I have written posts after listening to a number of the sermons and lectures. (See here about William Lane Craig and here about John Perkins and Erwin McManus and here about Wangerin, McLaren, Buechner, Capon, Foster, Groome and here on John MacArthur).

    I listen to stuff on the internet a lot because:

    1. We don’t have TV but we can watch DVDs and videos.
    2. I often prepare to teach class at home and watch 10-month year-old son Ryan.
    3. I do the laundry and cleaning around the house.

    The discipline of study vs. the discipline of silence

    Sometimes I have felt guilty for not practicing the presence of God like Brother Lawrence. I have felt bad for not practicing the discipline of silence. In chapter 7 of Celebration of Discipline, Richard Foster writes: "Our fear of being alone drives us to noise and crowds . . . We buy radios that strap to our wrists or fit over our ears so that, if no one else is around, at least we are not condemned to silence." I take his prophetic warning seriously. There is a place for silence in my life and surely needs to be cultivated more.

    But I think there is also a place for thinking about "whatever" is worth thinking about (Philippians 4:8). (I just realized that this is equivalent to Richard Foster’s "discipline of study" (ch. 5 of Celebration of Discipline) and he in fact quotes Philippians 4:8). I hope that I can turn what I am listening to into prayer. "Lord, help me to sort through what I am hearing and use it to serve you better."

    Another option is to listen to Scripture read aloud. See Biblegateway’s Audio here or listen to the New Testament in Greek here like NT Wright used to do. See my post about him here.

  • How to Search for a Christian Ministry Job

    This is a letter that I wrote to senior Christian Educational Ministries majors and minors at Taylor University but I think it is applicable to almost anyone searching for a Christian ministry position.

    Dear Senior Christian Educational Ministries Capstone Folks and some other CE Senior Minors in my classes,

    I have been talking with a number of you and told you that I would email you a list of job-search websites. I have listed them at the bottom of this email. I think ChurchStaffing.com, Willow Creek Association’s Exchange, and Youth Specialties’s Job Bank are the most important. Here is what they are useful for: they give you an idea of the kind of positions that are out there.

    Why Ministry Job Search Websites are Mostly Useless:

    But I have got to tell you: hardly anyone gets a job by getting a position listed on an internet job site. I can hardly think of anyone that has actually gotten a position that way. (I have married two couples who met on the internet. I think that it is more likely to find a spouse than a job by searching on the internet). Before JR Kerr was hired, the teaching pastor position at North Way was listed for a long time at ChurchStaffing.com . . . but that is not how JR got the job. Someone on staff at North Way had met him and invited him to come down and meet with the senior pastor and just talk and see if there might be a fit . . . and there was.

    So I have written more below about a better way to search for a ministry position.

    How employers actually look for people to hire:

    As Richard Bolles says in What Color is Your Parachute, most employers search for people in the following way. (I’m paraphrasing from memory here. Bolles actually gives the statistics). First, people hiring look at the people who are already part of the organization and see if any of them could fill the position. In the church, they look at volunteers from the church or someone who is working in another position in the church who might be reassigned. Second, they think of other people they know (in other churches, parachurch organizations, friends, relatives, acquaintances, etc.) Third, they ask trusted friends if they know of anyone who would be good. Fourth, they will post the position internally. They will post the position description in the bulletin and maybe on their website. Fifth, they will post the position opening more broadly. They may post it on Youth Specialties, ChurchStaffing.com, Willow Creek Association, a denominational site, Taylor’s Career Development office, a local Christian newspaper or email Taylor CE profs. Sixth (and almost never for ministry ads), they may post the position in the newspaper want-ads.

    How to find out about good positions:

    The point is that if you wait for positions to be posted publicly on the internet or in the newspaper, a lot of the good ones will be already gone! But if you call someone in the church leadership and tell them about what you are interested in and ask them if they can give you any advice, you may be one of the first people who gets considered. People cannot resist being asked for advice. We all feel honored to give advice! The person you ask may have just been to a pastor’s prayer meeting and hear that First Baptist down the street is looking for a Youth Pastor. Pray for God to be moving ahead of your phone call or email!

    So, I would encourage you to contact churches and especially people that you respect and like. Probably if you like them, you will probably like the ministry positions they know about. If they are megachurch, they will know of other megachurch positions. If they are emerging church, they will know of other emerging positions. If they are a great youth pastor, they will know the other great youth pastors in the area. Just tell them what you are looking for and ask them if they have any advice for you and ask them if there is anyone else they recommend talking to.

    Better than talking on the phone with them is meeting with them in person. They will see how charming you are and seeing you in person will inspire them to really think how they can help you! Email them or phone them and say this: "From all I hear about you, I feel like I could really learn a lot from you. Is there any way I could drive to where you work and take you out to lunch or to Starbucks someday and hear about what it is like to do ministry to youth in the inner-city? I think that is what I’m interested in and I would love to just get any advice you can give me. I’m a senior so I’m thinking about what I want to do next. If that’s not possible to meet with you, is there a good time I could call you?"

    Tell your relatives, friends in the area you are interested in, your home church pastor, pastor at Taylor, cousins, other students . . . everyone and let them know what you are looking for. "I’m interested in doing college ministry in a church, do you know of any positions open like that? Or do you know any really cool people that do college ministry in a church who I could ask for advice?" This will help you get leads and in the process you will learn what you are really interested in and what you’re not interested in. For example, Cousin Billy will tell you he has a college ministry position open at his church in Arizona and after some soul-searching you may realize that Arizona is too far away from your jr-at-Taylor-fiance.

    I think in the end, if you work hard like this, you will probably get a few options to choose from and you will probably make a better decision rather than just taking the first job that comes along.

    The most important thing to look for:

    I really think the most important thing is for you to be under an immediate supervisor who you admire and have respect for their ministry skills. If you spend time with them and realize that they don’t seem to know what they are doing, are a terrible speaker, are not very relational, etc. but you are still tempted to go there because the position looks cool, I would think twice before going there. You want to think: "This is really someone I could learn from." Not that they are necessarily going to be your special mentor / guru / father figure, but for most people your immediate supervisor makes the difference between ministry being miserable or a joy. If you have a supervisor who believes in you and is wise in ministry, you can get through the learning curves and stresses of ministry.

    Know what you are looking for but also keep an open mind:

    It is good to try to articulate what you are really interested in – for example, leading worship and working with sr. high students, etc. If you just say, "I’m looking for a job" they won’t remember you when a youth pastor / worship leader position comes up. But if you tell them specificallly what you are interested in, they will remember you! But also be a little open-minded and flexible about what you might enjoy doing. My wife Amy thought she wanted to do women’s ministry but ended up loving children’s ministry because essentially she ended up encouraging, praying for, counseling, nurturing, equipping and empowering volunteers – much like she had hoped to do in women’s ministry.

    How to find out what you are interested in:

    If you are not sure what you want to do, ask permission to shadow someone for a day or most of a day. I give you permission to skip a day of classes to do it (or do it on a Sunday)! Again, the person you shadow will get to know you a bit and will probably be able to think of some other leads for you to check out. After that day, you will probably be able to say: I totally want to do do what that guy does. Or, I think I’d like to shadow someone from children’s ministry and see if I like that a bit better.

    Don’t get stereotyped as a secretary:

    I would not encourage you to take an "administrative assistant" position. Some of you are good at administration and like it but that doesn’t mean you need "administration" in your title. You will do administration in every position (answer email, return calls, organize events, etc.) but a secretary position means that you need to sit at your desk and answer the phone no matter what. For example, if someone in the youth group comes in to your office crying, you want to be able to spend time with them and care for them. If you are in a secretarial position, that is not your job. They will be ok with it once but will be unhappy if that is a pattern. If you are in a ministry position, you will be expected to care for people! Make sure you take a ministry position because you will learn more and you are trained for that! I had a Taylor CE grad friend who took a youth pastor secretary position and the people always looked at her that way even though she could have done a better job than the youth pastor!

    Accepting the job:

    When you are "candidating" (visiting a church and talking to the church about working there) and negotiating a contract, feel free to talk to me or Phil Collins or another ministry person you respect from another church, to get advice. I think it is good for you to be paid something – hopefully enough to live on (especially if they are asking you to work full-time). Volunteering at a ministry and working a "regular job" elsewhere is ok but you will get a lot more attention and responsibility if the church is paying you and I think you will learn more this way. But I don’t think you need to be paid big bucks in your first position. Learn now, earn later.

    Let me know if you have more questions.

    May the Lord guide each of you into the right position where you can learn, grow spiritually, be fulfilled, work hard and make a difference.

    andy

    A couple of sites for looking up sample salaries:

    • ELCA Youth Ministry Network Salary Survey – You need to get a free login.
    • 2006 Leadership Network Salary and Economic Outlook Report – Again you have to get a free login.  This is larger churches so the salaries tend to be higher. 
    • You can also buy a book which gives you information about this.  The 2007 Compensation Handbook for Church Staff It is $29.95 or you can download just the section you are interested in for $9.95.
    • Many denominations post salary guidelines.  If you find more, list them in the comments. 

    Some Ministry Job Search Websites

    Christiancareercenter.com
    christian-careers.com
    ChristianJobs.com
    Christianitytoday.com
    Churchjobs.net
    Churchjobsonline.com
    ChurchStaffing.com
    Kingdomcareers.com
    ministryjobs.com
    ministrysearch.com
    pastorsearch.net

    Bethel Seminary Placement Index
    Fuller Theological Seminary – Career Services
    Gordon Conwell’s MinistryList.com

    American Baptist Home Mission American Baptist Personnel
    Evangelical Covenant Church Seeking Staff
    Evangelical Presybyterian Church Opportunity List
    Presbyterian Church USA Opportunity List
    Willow Creek Association — The Exchange
    Willow Creek Community Church Employment Opportunities

    Youth Specialties Job Bank
    YouthPastor.com

  • Review of Preaching Re-Imagined by Doug Pagitt

    I read Doug Pagitt’s book Preaching Re-Imagined Zondervan (September 1, 2005) today.

    Doug is the pastor of Solomon’s Porch in Minneapolis and a member of the leadership of Emergent.

    Summary:

    He questions the value of 1-way lecture preaching. He calls it "speaching." He modestly presents his own model which he calls "progressional dialogue." Concretely this includes having a Bible study on Tuesday night regarding the upcoming Sunday sermon with a number of people from the congregation. He can learn from them and quote them in the sermon. He also gives 10 minutes of open-mic discussion time after his sermon so that people can suggest applications, ask questions, and hear from one another. He also encouraged people to blog about the sermon afterward.

    Reaction to thesis:

    As someone who is currently a college professor, this seems obvious in the classroom. Yes present content but don’t always lecture the entire class period. Give some opportunity for some interaction and questions.

    I also teach my students an interactive classroom and small group teaching method called "Shared Christian Praxis" by Thomas Groome from his books Christian Religious Education and Sharing Faith.

    However, the sermon is a different thing and for a variety of reasons this 1-way lecturing is the norm. In short (this is my summary – not Doug’s), there are people (especially Reformed) who believe this is the right way. Second, there is tradition. Third, it is impractical in a college lecture hall of 100 people (or a church auditorium of 1000) to have good discussion.

    Pagitt says the 1-way lecturing model of preaching has a particular effect on the relationship between the pastor and the congregation. It cultivates a sense in which the pastor is admired, unquestioned, and isolated. He or she "the one who knows the Bible." He doesn’t think that these effects are particularly biblical nor good for the community nor good for him in the long run.

    Still, Doug advocates that the preacher should not just give into the whims of the congregation. The preacher is to prepare and speak courageously to challenge the community in the area of its blindspots. There will simply be times when they point out his blindspots as well and times when they will challenge one another.

    Application of thesis:

    For me, there have been times when I have listened to sermons that I badly wished it was appropriate to ask questions. Sometimes the preacher says something particularly insenstive and I want to be able to ask: "Now, correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought you said . . . but I’m sure you don’t really mean all the nasty implications of that if it were taken the wrong way, right? I just wanted to give you the opportunity to clarify."

    Recently, I was at a conference at Granger Community Church and we were allowed to put questions in a bowl on our table. At the end of the morning and afternoon sessions, they tried to answer the questions. That was great!

    When I led a young adult ministry, I invited in speakers and invited them to speak for 1/2 hour and then take questions for 15 minutes and then we would encourage people to stay around for dessert. The whole evening was around round tables (dinner, worship, speaker, Q&A, dessert) so that also facilitated discussion.

    Similarly, I have done a lot of preaching and one of the first shocks in preaching is how little real feedback you get. During a sermon, people nod off and sleep. Very few people physically or verbally interact with you as you would if you were talking in a small group. (This is not true in an African-American church. I just visited Enon Tabernacle in Philadelphia in January and the interaction was incredible).

    Afterward, people typically say, "nice sermon" but that’s about it. To get some decent feedback, I eventually had some of my fellow preachers fill out a form for me each time I spoke: (1) what helped me hear was . . . (2) what would have helped me hear better was . . . (3) this sermon inspires me to . . .

    I have loved studying the passage I will be preaching on with my small group before I give the sermon. They have reminded me where people are at and given me fresh approaches. I highly recommend that practice.

    All in all, I think Doug’s approach has much to commend it and I plan on continuing to push the envelope like Doug in encouraging interaction.

    Recommendation of who should read this book:

    If you have questioned the polished, manuscripted, impersonal, talking-down-to, zero-feedback, difficult-to-apply-to-everyone sermon, this book will be a fresh breeze. If you have forgotten those very real concerns, this book will be a good reminder to keep things fresh.

    I think this is a great little provocative book to have students read in preaching classes. I think students in preaching classes are intuitively asking the questions Doug is asking and this book would give them a forum for dealing with those questions. They are asking:

    Who am I to preach?
    I don’t want to use a manuscript – that’s boring. I want to walk around and gesture.
    How do I not manipulate people but keep them with me?
    How do I apply this sermon to people I don’t even know and who are at totally different places in life?

    This is a must-read for preaching professors (if that needs to be said).

    I read the book during my son’s two 1-hour naps today so it is a pretty easy read. I only intended to read chapter 2 because Doug says this is the summary of the entire book. If you can’t do anything else, do that.

    This book is not perfectly written. The book has some quotes from people in his congregation which could probably have been condensed, etc. It is not meticulously researched as he cites just four outside sources in the entire book. But I don’t think these things really matter.

    This is Doug telling us why he does it the way he does it. I think it is valuable, fresh, honest, and in most cases persuasive.

    Resources:

    Here is Doug Pagitt’s blog and the blog for the book and you can find discussion at North Park professor and New Testament scholar Scot McKnight’s famous and outstanding blog: Part 1, Part 2, Part 3.

    Also, you can hear Doug on a panel at the Princeton Seminary Emerging Church/Theological Education Caucus (#2) if you like audio like I do. See also my preaching bibliography, teaching bibliograpy and use of media in teaching and preaching bibliography.

    Listen here to Richard Holland of Master’s Seminary who vehemently disagrees with Pagitt’s take on preaching. If you would rather not listen to the MP3, see the notes Mark Shivers took here.

    I love listening to sermons and lectures. Here is my list of some that are available on the net.